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 Post subject: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:15 am 
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Does the Deck Legend have this problem?


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:38 am 
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I have forwarded this article on to our lead engineer, he is investigating the matter.

After reading all 11 pages of the thread, my gut would tell me that if you go with the PS2 version you will not have this problem but may see this with the USB version. I will have to test this here and see if we get the same behavior.

Will post again when we have more info.

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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:41 pm 
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UPDATE: To summarize, our products may behave like the other keyboards in the forum thread you mentioned depending on how fast you type each of the 'simultaneously' pressed letters. The best thing I can suggest: try a Deck for yourself and if it doesn't keep up with your speedy fingers you can return it within 30 days for a refund (less S&H).

From our lead engineer:

Quote:
USB HID keyboards are strange; there’s no first-in-first-out queing of the data. Instead, there is a “key-down array” Note the “Report order is arbitrary and does not reflect order of events” in the “Comments” column on page 73 of the USB HID specification:

http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/HID1_11.pdf

Code:
B down 01000000 04 05 1B Report order is
                         arbitrary and does
                         not reflect order of
                         events

USB polls our keyboard about once every 8 ms. So there is about an 8 ms window in which the ordering will be arbitrary...Then the next limiting factor is the scanning frequency of the keyboard [and we are not planning to change this for our current products].

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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:44 pm 
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Thanks for the prompt and helpful reply. So does the PS2 version have the problem? And is there any way to increase the USB sample rate? I know for mice it's possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:16 pm 
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Short answer: maybe.

Longer answer from our lead engineer:

Quote:
No, PS/2 has a first-in-first-out buffer (assuming the keys are pressed on a different scan, but faster than the USB polling rate).

The next limiting factor for PS/2 is the scan rate. If you truly press two keys simultaneously (stop time, press two keys, restart time), whatever key the scanning routine found pressed first would be reported first.

The same thing could happen during a single key scan period – even if the keys are pressed in a specific sequence, they could be reported out-of-sequence.

So what I think you’re getting at is would he be happier with a PS/2 keyboard? I typically scan at a 4ms period and have about 25ms debounce time (the debounce time is irrelavent of the reported key sequence). So they’d only be getting about 4 ms of extra resolution (8 ms usb polling period – 4ms scan rate).

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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:32 am 
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I know it is off-topic (kind of) but I wonder if this problem applies to the latest DAS generation.
The thread you are talking about is a year old. And I suspect DAS has done their homework about your issue.

"Fast typists and gamers will be glad to hear Das Keyboard has an n-key rollover function allowing up to 12 keys to be pressed simultaneously"

So this thing records 12 keys "simultaneously". We all know that there is no such thing of "simultaneously" since it is impossible to press them all at the very same time. So the big question is ... How quick can you go before the keyboard lose the sequence.

Dumb unscientific test with my deck: (Sliding 1 finger as fast as I can on the deck)
qwerty
qwerty
qwerty
qwerty
qwerty
asdfg
asdfg
asdfg
asdfg

Dude... I can't beat it.

Human reflexes range from 1/10th to 1/100th of second depending on the muscle and training.
1/100th is a far far fetch. Even Chuck Norris can't do it... Maybe Bruce Lee :lol:

So the 8ms above is 0.8/100th of second.

I'd say unless you are some sort of Alien, then you will be safe.

Dyslexia is another story... But you can't blame your Keyboard for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:03 am 
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Reflexes are where you're responding to something. You can certainly hit two keys in less than 1/125th of a second -- just hit them at what appears to be the same time to you.

I type about 120 wpm at 100% on a Model M. My dad has a cheap Logitech keyboard, and if I type "asdf" in any order on it, it comes out "asfd". If I type "the" on it, it comes out "teh". I don't know how slow that keyboard is, but it's a problem I definitely don't want to have if I'm spending $150 on a keyboard.


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:54 pm 
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That's an interesting thread. I tried the "asdf" test mentioned in the thread and I wasn't able to get a consistent pattern on the Deck, however I do recall having these types of typos before ("teh" instead of "the", and such) on different systems (probably my laptop keyboard, but I don't recall). I had never considered that a slow controller might be queuing up the data and sending it out of order. In fact, I think I'll blame all my typos on that from now on 8)

A typing rate of 120wpm is very fast - using the standard definition that would be 600 characters per minute, which at a constant cadence would be 10 per second, or 100ms per key. Using a USB interrupt rate of 8ms would certainly seem to cover that. Most likely though typing cadence isn't constant, but more "bursty". However it almost seems like a HID spec failure that the key order was not preserved. Even though the keystrokes are packaged and sent as a block they could have ordered the data.


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:03 am 
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Quote:
I tried the "asdf" test mentioned in the thread and I wasn't able to get a consistent pattern on the Deck

Thanks. Perhaps the Deck really is the best keyboard ever.

I'm sure I type "the" faster than 10 cps, but faster than 125 cps? Probably not. I bet the Das keyboard has a problem where it's polling a lot slower than every 8ms.


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:56 pm 
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As the Deck engineer said, the 6 keycodes in the report from the USB keyboard reflect which keys are currently pressed. Almost any system which operates on keypresses ultimately works on 'key down' and 'key up' events. So the keyboard driver has to compare the list of keys in the current report and the list of keys in the previous report and generate key up/down messages in some order. The exact same keyboard could have different results on your 'asdf' test on OSX, Linux, FreeBSD, Windows XP, Vista, etc.

For what it's worth, if you were making a 'typists' keyboard (as opposed to a 'gamer' keyboard) you could try to spread 'simultaneous' keypresses across multiple reports to reflect the true order. That assumes you are scanning the key matrix fast enough to make the distinction.


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:16 pm 
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Something else to consider is the fact that USB ports are shared resources. I wonder if a demanding USB device on the same USB controller as the keyboard can interfere with the keyboard performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Yesterday, May 13th
Daniel, the co-founder of Das Keyboard did the honorable thing and admitted to the key transposition error the Das Keyboards have. http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?p=82
Quote:
This was brought to our attention last November (Most likely the geekhack guys). Our testing has shown that this is in fact a ”limitation” of the first version of our keyboards. The detection time of the current version was designed as 100ms which means that if you are a very, very fast typist, approximately 120 words per minute then, you might encounter this limitation. It’s something we are redesigning for the next version of Das Keyboard.

Too bad this didn't come a couple days sooner because I just purchased Das Ultimate on May 10th. I purchased it entirely aware of the defect, but I was hoping that it wouldn't show up in regular typing. I type at 120 WPM though and I experienced it nearly every time on certain words. Ironically, in my refund request I linked to the very article they referenced in their blog post.

I'm glad Das at least admitted to it officially though; because of that I'll consider purchasing their "next version" unless of course Deck comes out with a full-sized blue Cherry keyswitch board first. Now that... would be the best board ever. The only reason I left my trusty Deck Legend in the first place was to use some blue keyswitches. I wanted to use blues for their tactile response and clicky sound. The feel of the Das was amazing. I loved it! I've let you down Adam :(
The black linear keyswitches the Deck uses are good too, but only in comparison to rubber dome membranes.

Is Deck really planning on releasing a tactile response keyswitch this summer? Because summer is basically here right now. Hopefully they'll be blue, if they're brown I'll be a bit disappointed since I do love a good click. Just let people choose imo!


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:17 pm 
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http://www.deckkeyboards.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2277#p2277
->"don't think we will have anything new by next week, possibly closer to the middle of summer maybe?"

Now shooting for mid-summer :-)

Got a DAS few weeks ago. I haven't noticed teh problem under normal use yet. But I'm nowhere close to 120wpm. The key feel of the DAS is growing on me. Just like the Deck did btw. I'm glad I'm not as fast as you. When I pay the price, I'm not forgiven with flaws/defects. As a keyboard collector, I’m also disappointed I purchased a DAS in their "bad/flawed" years. Dang!

Thanks for sharing.


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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:39 am 
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Hamps wrote:
Is Deck really planning on releasing a tactile response keyswitch this summer? Because summer is basically here right now. Hopefully they'll be blue, if they're brown I'll be a bit disappointed since I do love a good click. Just let people choose imo!

I am working on this right now but I can't let the cat of out the bag just yet...for now all I can say is that if we do in fact release a new product the first lot won't have blue switches. Check back in June :)

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 Post subject: Re: Das keyboard vs. Deck Legend
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:45 pm 
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Awesome, Deck is the best! :)


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